Incorruptible Mass

The Four-Day Week

• Anna Callahan • Season 6 • Episode 11

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We continue our series on our economy by talking with Juliet Schor, an economist and sociologist at Boston College, about the potential presented by the four-day workweek. We learn about what common issues are and how different companies have chosen to solve them, the benefits of the plan for both businesses and their workers, and how soon we might see a four-day workweek become the norm right here in Massachusetts.

You’re listening to Incorruptible Mass. Our goal is to help people transform state politics: we investigate why it’s so broken, imagine what we could have here in MA if we fixed it, and report on how you can get involved.

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ANNA

Hello and welcome to Incorruptible Mass. Our mission here is to help us all transform state politics, because we know that we could have a state legislature that truly supports the needs of all the 7 million residents of our beautiful state.


And today we have a wonderful guest. This is our third one on the economy? Our fourth? I can't remember. We're definitely diving in on economic economics here. And so today we have a special guest, Juliet Schor, that we'll introduce in just a second. We will be talking about a four-day workweek. We'll be talking a little bit about, you know, historically, how the five-day workweek even happened. We will talk about what it's like, the benefits not only to workers, but the benefits to employers and organizations. We'll talk about the movement to pass a four-day week here in Massachusetts and how that's going. Talk a little bit about AI and how that interfaces as well as we'll talk about the national economy. So stay tuned.


Before we do, I am gonna have my wunderbar co-host, Jonathan Cohn — I haven't used that word yet — introduce himself.


JONATHAN

Right, constantly innovating. Jonathan Cohn, I've been an activist in Boston for a little over a decade now on a number of progressive issue and electoral campaigns, and I'm joining from the South End right by Back Bay Station.


ANNA

Anna Callahan, she/her, coming at ya from Medford. I am a city councilor here, and I do a lot of work, kind of training people at the local level to win majorities on their city council across the country. So today we're very, very excited to have Juliet Schor, who is gonna talk to us about her book, Four Days a Week. And if you don't mind just giving us a super quick intro to the book, but also we'd love to hear kind of how you got into this topic.


JULIET

Sure. Well, thanks, Anna and Jonathan. Great pleasure to be here with you. I'm really excited. It's the first podcast I've been able to do that is going to dive into the Massachusetts scene. And it's a pretty exciting one.


ANNA

So that's our jam.


JULIET

So my story — and I do open the book with this — is that way back in the 1980s, I got interested in working hours. Now, how I got interested in working hours is a little bit strange. I was reading a book by a philosopher. And he had some stuff on the economy and he was a big famous guy. Plato, I'm sure. A page and a half that was just totally wrong. And I was like, oh, and I wrote a paper showing why he was wrong. But it was about work, it dealt with working hours. And so I got interested in working hours.


I really ended up getting really interested and I wrote a book called The Overworked American: the Unexpected Decline of Leisure, which came out in 1992. It was a national bestseller. A lot of interest at that time because it was a period of time when people were feeling really overworked and stressed. And I tried to find some companies that would be interested in doing work time reduction experiments without reducing workers' pay. And I had conversations with a number of companies. And actually one company, Helene Curtis beauty — they make shampoos and so forth, family-owned company in Chicago — their head of production came to me and he had an idea for how to do it. And in the end, the higher-ups didn't allow him.


And then, you know, time went on and neoliberalism got, you know, kind of more and more entrenched. And people just really shifted focus away from working hours to income inequality, wage stagnation, growing precarity in the labor force, all of these really important things. But work time was kind of an orphan topic. I mean, it had always been among economists. But when the pandemic hit, I started getting more invitations to talk about work time coming from Europe primarily. And, you know, with Zoom, I was giving tons of talks in Europe now because I didn't have to go.


I was approached by someone who was organizing a trial of private sector organizations who wanted to go to a four-day, 32-hour schedule with no reductions in pay, but to start out by figuring out how to reorganize work to make it economically viable. They asked if I'd be the lead researcher. I said yes. And that was the beginning of what has been now three and a half years of research on companies all around the world that are doing this.


ANNA

Oh my gosh. How— you get asked that question and you're not gonna say no. You're like, “Yeah, that's amazing.”


JONATHAN

That'd be great. Okay, really go.


JULIET

No, no. It was a little bit funny because the first trial was an Irish trial and I was like, “oh, Irish.” But I had an Irish — a former student, PhD student. So I contacted her and said, “Would you like to do this?” And then she said, “Well, will you do it with me?” Fine. But then the guy who was running them told me he was coming to the US and he made it so he was going to Cornell ILR School — International IR, International Industrial Relations School — and for a fellowship. So I thought he was a union guy. I thought he's just coming for a fellowship. Well, it turned out he was coming to do the US trials. And suddenly it was like, “Oh no, you're researching this massive US thing too.” But it was like, yeah, of course, how can you turn it down?


JONATHAN

And then any interesting things when going into those trials— was there anything that you were, let's say, convinced— like how did the outcomes and the observations, how do those align with what you might have suspected going into this? Any kind of hypotheses at the start about how things would end up? Did they go exactly as you thought, or were there a number of surprises along the way?


JULIET

So, okay, to answer that, I need to tell you a little bit more about how the research was and so forth. So we had a couple of different dimensions of the data collection. One was employee surveys. So we had a before-and-after methodology. We'd get them at baseline while they're still in the five-day week and then six months later. And we did end up at 12 months and 24 months just to see how durable things are. We also ended up eventually doing interviews with a lot of these trials, and we collected data from the companies.


So I think we were pretty sure employee well-being would go up. Like, why wouldn't it? You're getting the same amount of money, you get a free day, et cetera. But the philosophy of the organization, the NGO that was running the trials, is what they call the 100-80-100 model. you get 100% of the pay for 80% of the work time, but you have to do 100% of your work. So the guy who started it was an entrepreneur and he'd heard that office workers only work a couple of hours a day. I mean, a ridiculous statistic, but anyway, he thought, well, if that's true, let me see if my people want this trade-off.


Actually, the way we organized it is the companies — and they were both— there’re NGOs in them as well, they're not all for-profit companies — would spend two months of coaching, onboarding, doing what we called work reorganization. So figuring out how to change what they're doing to save time so that people actually could get all the work done in four days. So it's not just an individual thing that you, Anna Callahan or Jonathan Cohn, need to figure out on yourself, because that won't work. You have to change the culture of the work time, so of the workplace.


So a lot of what they did was, you know, worked on meetings and, you know, getting rid of dysfunctional meetings or giving people focus time, figuring out what they were doing that just wasn't of any value and getting rid of it or changing priorities. In the manufacturing companies, they go through every step in the manufacturing to figure out where they might save time. And then another big thing is sort of doing upfront investment that you normally don't have time to do, but that will save you time later on. And we could talk about that later.


But so what did we— what were we worried about? You know, what kind of rebound effects, as we, as we call them, might be there? So the number one that I was worried about was work intensity. I mean, it's one thing to say, we're gonna let you work four days, but it's a speed-up. You might still prefer it. Most people will, but you're just working harder and faster and have sort of less freedom on the job and so forth. I mean, it might be good, but it's a far cry from saying, “We can reorganize work so you can get everything done and not, you know, you're not going to be rushed and sped up.” So work intensity and pace of work.


Number two, second job-holding, especially in the US. Like, are people just going to go out and get another job? They might have more money then, and they might be better off in some ways, but you wouldn't get the burnout and stress and all those other kinds of well-being improvements that we were concerned about. We were also looking at climate impacts because one of the big arguments for a four-day week is that you'll get carbon benefits, less commuting, and so were people taking three-day weekends and flying off or driving long distances?


So those were some of the rebounds that we worried about. And the short answer here is that we don't see any of them. There's a teensy bit of an uptick in work intensity, but very small and not consistent. And second job-holding actually declines on average across our sample. Really interesting. And we're not seeing a travel rebound. So that's the short version. And then we can get into the well-being impacts, which are huge. We have 20 well-being metrics. And happy to talk about them, but basically you see really big improvements in all of them.


ANNA

Great. So I have a number of questions. And one of my questions is, usually, are people all working on the same four days or do they get to choose which day they have off? Are all the employees in the office at the same time or on remote at the same time? And then the other question, 'cause I've heard this about some four-day workplaces, that they offer parents with young children the ability to spread the 32 hours over five days because that matches with the children's schedules and actually works better for them than the four-day week that works more for folks with either teenagers or who don't have kids at home. So that's my first kind of technical questions, like how does it actually work? What does it really look like?


JULIET

Yeah, fantastic question. First of all, we see all of those things in the sense that the company— one of the first things they have to do is figure out what kind of a four-day week are they going to have. So on your last point, which is about five shorter days, there are a fraction of the companies, probably about 10% or so, that allow that as an option. But the vast majority are taking the full day off.


Now, partly it's because the fraction of people in the sample with kids at, you know, younger kids is not that high. There's a four-day week study done about a feminist organization in Belgium where the preference there — and a lot of them had young kids — the preference there was for the five shorter days. So there's some desire for that, but it's pretty much really dominated by the people who want the full day.


So the most common way to do it is a Friday off. The second most common is a Monday off. So in those cases, everybody's getting the same day off. You, you have, we also have Wednesdays. That turns out to be a popular day off. Well, because it's in the middle of the week. So at break, right?


ANNA

Who wants to go on a day?


JULIET

But far fewer than the four, than the Fridays and then some places have people pick their own day off, and some places have— we have a marketing company— I have longer vignettes about some of these companies in the book where I did, you know, more in-depth interviews with the management and in some cases with the employees and so forth. And the brewery that's also in the book also has a Monday/Friday. So they divide the workforce into two teams because they need that five-day operation. So with the marketing company, they wanted to make sure their clients could access them at any time.


There's one other thing I wanted to say here though, which is interesting, and that is about not having everyone off, not so much for the teams, 'cause that's a half-and-half kind of thing. But the lead company in our second trial, which was a US trial, US and Canada, is a pretty well-known tech company called Kickstarter, which does crowdfunding. And one of the things they realized was if they didn't have everyone off on the same day, what was going to happen was the people — let's say they had Friday and Monday — people who were there on Friday would be creating all this work for the people who weren't there, so that when they came back on Monday, they were gonna be overwhelmed. It just wasn't a good system, right?


You have to figure out— you have to figure out the workflow and how the day off is gonna affect the workflow so you don't want people to have to come back to a bad situation. Yeah, I can see that they said everybody off on the same day.


JONATHAN

No, that makes sense particularly if you have— if there's a world of shared projects or if you're gonna be emailing this person, and then that person goes on Monday, and if the person then sees this long list of emails that they got from having on Friday off, and then if some of the people that they're corresponding with have Monday off, that creates all of that kind of the backlog effect that doesn't get created by the same day.


JULIET

Yeah. So there's that. I profile an architecture firm that ended up having to tweak their model because they basically— they'd work on their designs, you know, it used to be till Friday at, you know, some Friday at five, say, and then project managers would— they would tend to work on the weekends to kind of figure things out and get ready for whatever the next round of work was on Monday.


And they were— the project managers were really antsy about everybody disappearing on Thursday and they didn't see them again until Monday morning. So they created a little bit of an on-call system. If they really needed someone, they could be in touch with them on the Friday for a phone call. A few of the companies have done that where they really need to be contacted. They can be— it's a little bit the way weekends worked before where you might get called on the weekend.


But one of the interesting ones is a company that said, “Okay, there is some on call and they— the ones who do this tend to rarely— they don't contact people that much.” But that you can also have, I forget what the number was, I think eight days off a year, which are like a vacation day where you're out of commission. And so if you wanna make an appointment to see the doctor, you're not gonna, there's no uncertainty about whether you're gonna get a call. So the companies do a lot to kind of tweak, iterate, modify the program to make it work for whatever their particular needs are.


ANNA

Nice. I wanna ask one more question before we dive into like Massachusetts politics and AI and these kind of broader questions. My last question is really like, what are the benefits for organizations?


JULIET

Yeah, so this is the surprising part of the— I mean, Jonathan, you asked like, “what surprised you?” And I mean, I think, you know— we went into it thinking that it was going to work for employees and organizations, too. I mean, we know employees were going to have massively reduced burnout and stress and fatigue and anxiety and, you know, work-life balance and all of that. You know, they're exercising more, they're sleeping better, they're sleeping more. You know, that we knew that from other work time literature, reduced work time literature, although it's there— there's almost no literature on actual four-day weeks. Most of what's been done is sort of shorter days anyway.


But the whole model was saying there's the businesses are going to benefit too. So there are a couple of main reasons. I mean, at the core of it is the fact that employees are healthier, more energized, et cetera. And that's good for the businesses. And one of the things they'll talk about is better quality of service. So like in the healthcare cases where nurses have this, patient outcomes improve, or we have a restaurant that I profile, their service and quality improves. So that's point one.


But why is it and how do they manage to keep the productivity up? I mean, that's the part that's really hard to figure out and sort of get your head, wrap your head around. And, you know, as an economist, I know that economists are extremely skeptical of this idea. So I talk a lot in the book about their arguments and why they're wrong— you know, why this is actually despite the fact that economists think it can't be.


So the one really important thing is that people's productivity — and this is based on self-reports — but the companies are telling us the same thing. Productivity takes a big jump upwards, a lot. And people— there's a smart working scale that we give to people and it— there's a big improvement from before the four-day week to later. There's self-reports of productivity. We have a question about your current workability compared to your lifetime best and that's SOARs. So one cool thing is that that actually turns out to be very important in people's well-being. So it's part of why they have less burnout and stress and that they—


ANNA

Feel that they're being more productive at work.


JULIET

Yeah, they're more on top of their jobs. Like they don't have Sunday scaries. They don't feel they can't get through the week, they don't feel overwhelmed. That intentional thing that happens before they get onto the four-day week — I call it the forcing mechanism of the four-day week — is where everybody kind of figures out how to do it better. And they do it in a very employee-empowered way — that teams come together and they figured it out together. It's not a top-down for most of the companies. Almost all of the people are involved in figuring out how to make it happen. So productivity goes up, quality goes up. So those things all really benefit the companies.


And then there's another piece of this that's really important, which is people stop leaving. And we were doing some of this work in the midst of the Great Resignation. And it's part of why many companies turned to this, because they were losing all these people and it's so costly for them. And we have companies that I profile here that had like 30% turnover on their teams, which is really expensive. Of course, the nurses, you know, nurses were burning out at historic rates. So that's really key because it keeps— it makes people stay at their jobs because the jobs become really valuable. And I talk about the kind of economic logic behind it.


Also, some of the kind of anthrop— you know, a more anthropological approach to it, like it's a gift economy. 'Cause it's coming from the businesses, you know, the employers are giving this, this is not coming in our study, you know, in our sample, it's not coming 'cause the workers fought for it, right? So it's a gift, and it's a gift on both sides. The employees give and the employers give.


JONATHAN

Before we jump into MA, I want to be curious about it. So like in the near future, we might reach a point where the four-day work week is just kind of— it becomes an assumed part of the landscape, in a way in which the five-day work week had increasingly been for a while that it just— even like one just assumed that the work week was a 40-hour-a-week: Monday to Friday, and nine to five. When we— when doing this work around the four-day week, what insights into the development of that five-day week did you get about how that— how that came about and became the kind of the norm that we all know it today? Know it to be today.


JULIET

Yeah. And this was another— you asked about surprising things. This really surprised me. So, a sociology colleague I knew was writing a book on the week— how we got to a seven-day week. And he had studied a lot— his name is Ezra Zuckerman, from MIT. He'd done a lot of study of the five-day week. And he was very gracious with me about his sources. And so a couple of things are really interesting: it's almost eerily similar what's happening today to what happened at the really early 20th century.


Okay, so the first thing is: so the five-day week movement was started by Orthodox rabbis who wanted to protect Saturday as the Jewish Sabbath. Now, we didn't have that. We don't have that here. This was not started by religious, but the first group of businesses which did it were small businesses. Garment businesses owned by— with Jewish owners. And then it started to spread. So that's the other thing we're seeing. It's starting with small businesses. Most of the companies in our sample are on the small side. I mean, we have 5,000-person companies and so forth, but, you know, most of them are little and some of them are really little. So that's the first thing.


The second was, they also found that productivity wasn't going down. And they found there were reasons why they were able to maintain it. So for example, a lot of these factories operated, really, four and a half days. So Saturday was a half day, which wasn't as productive. Well, that's what Fridays already become in the United States. It's evolving away from a workday. I've got statistics in the book on that.


So then they, the companies thought, okay, we can use Saturday mornings to fix the machinery and make sure we don't have breakdowns during the five days, Monday through Friday. And a lot of them worked as piece workers in garment work. So some of the companies said — just like the entrepreneur Andrew Barnes who started this stuff — they said, “If you can get all your work done by Friday, you don't have to come in on Saturday.” Well, they managed, they sped, you know — they managed to get it all done.


Then you start to see some bigger company interest. 1922, you get Henry Ford's. Actually, he doesn't make the first announcement — his son does, I think, or brother. 1922, they announced to the New York Times they're going to go to a five-day week. It doesn't happen till 1926. But then the unions come on board. So it's employer-initiated to begin with, with small companies. The unions start coming on board. You get contracts in the amalgamated who are the male textile workers. You get a national construction contract.


The unions at first were opposed because they were worried that wages would fall. And we're at the stage now where unions are really starting to weigh in in a bigger way. But when I started this, there really wasn't much union— not that much union activity around it. And then, of course, once you get the Great Depression, you have lots of discourse about hours and the 30 hours and so forth. And then it really morphs into the Fair Labor Standards Act and the statutory 40-hour week.


But, yes, so many of the things are similar. I'm really excited about the union stuff now that UAW— I've heard through the grapevine that they are planning to put the 32-hour week as one of their main three demands for their next contract.


JONATHAN

Very exciting.


ANNA

So before we jump into Massachusetts, which we've been threatening to do for like 20 minutes now, will be the wrong question before we jump into Massachusetts, which we're about to do. At the top, I think you said that this is the first podcast where you're going to get to talk about specifically, like the movement here in Massachusetts to get this passed in Massachusetts.


And I just have to do our mid roll, which is where we mentioned to people that, you know, we, we do spend a little bit of money on this podcast. None of us get paid. It all goes to some lovely young people who do our social media, who do our video editing, who do our graphic design. And so if you can put in — there's a link below, you can put in, you know, your five bucks or your 100 bucks or whatever you feel like to keep this show going, that would be amazing. You won't hear a lot of this stuff, and this is really, I think, going to be probably the first time that you've heard about the movement to get a four-day week here in Massachusetts. And that's why, you know, we do our best to keep this thing informed, keep you informed, to keep our best guests on the program. And that's why we annoy you by asking you for donations.


And that being said, I am gonna go back to Juliet Schor and ask you to talk about the movement, the exciting movement here in Massachusetts.


JULIET

Yeah, so, yes, we are one of the states in the country where we have two kinds of bills which have been filed. The first one, it was filed by Erika Uyterhoeven from Somerville, which is pretty much an equivalent bill to the one that Bernie Sanders, Senator Bernie Sanders. and Rep. Mark Takano have filed in the U.S. Congress — which is a simple thing — amend the Fair Labor Standards Act to change the statutory workweek from 40 to 32.


ANNA

Fantastic.


JULIET

Now, of course, that won't automatically give us a 32-hour week, just like full-time workers didn't get a 40-hour week. But they did get paid for overtime. But it would do a lot. It would do a lot to push. It's probably not on the verge of being passed yet. We need kind of a bit more movement-building to get there.


And that brings me to the second kind of bill that we have had in our legislature, and I am hopeful that we're going to have— it's going to be back. And that is a bill for a pilot program run by the state of companies who opt in to do this model, this four-day week model. And the state would — in this case, and in the New York case where they have a couple of bills also pending or have been filed— I guess they just finished their session Tuesday, I think, or Monday night maybe — but tax incentives for the companies which do this. And there would be robust research on the impacts. And so basically doing a lot of what we have done in our— my team has done in our research, but under the aegis of government and so forth.


Now, we've also been doing the research under the aegis of government in some other cases. So like our collaborators did it in Portugal, we did the survey administration on a Scottish trial. Other collaborators worked on a Spanish trial. The Polish have just— the government of Poland has just announced they're doing one. So there are— these government trials are really proliferating.


But so the Mass— in the Massachusetts case, what happened was the— I was contacted by the head of the— I think it's called Labor and Workforce Development Committee. It's a joint committee of the legislature from the House. The chair was Josh Cutler, and he really wanted to do this. And so he contacted me. We spent time trying to figure out the details of the bill. We had a wonderful hearing. The bill was successfully voted out of committee, and so it was on its way. But the thing that happened there was that Rep. Cutler joined the administration— the governor, the new Healey administration in the Executive Office of Labor and Workforce Development, I think it's called. And so the main champion of the bill was no longer there.


There is a second legislator, Dylan Fernandes, who was a rep and is now a senator from the Cape area. And he also independently contacted me and he was originally interested in a bill called the Three-Day Weekend Bill, which is a nice little flip on it, right? And my— I believe he is going to be reintroducing a bill. And so I think we're gonna have a chance to push it forward in the next session.


When I spoke— so I got to know some of the staffers and I happened to be at the State House doing lobbying on climate work, which I do, and I popped into Rep. Fernandes's office to say, “Well, what's happening with our bill?” And he gave me a statistic that I hadn't heard — but which you are both, I'm sure, super familiar with — in which he said, “Well, you know, the average amount of time it takes a bill to get through the Massachusetts State House is eight years.”


ANNA

Only eight.


JULIET

Only eight. So. But I'm hopeful we can get—


JONATHAN

It's like, don't move too fast.


JULIET

Yeah.


ANNA

If you don't like the— if you don't like the political weather, wait 27 years.


JULIET

Anyway, so I think we actually can get a bill through. I mean, it's— there are many constituents for whom this kind of thing would be really positive. I mean, I've been telling— you know, one of the things I've been talking about, because we have data on it now, that historically was never part of the conversation was disabilities — people with disabilities — because we are seeing really big increases in well-being among people with disabilities. And what we're hearing from some are four days allows them to keep a job that they wouldn't be able to keep on five. So at a time when, you know, there's a lot of pressure to get more people into the labor force, it's a really important thing.


JONATHAN

And as like with the few minutes that we have left, we'd love to hear kind of thoughts about the intersections between the kind of working hours and AI, as every day I feel like I encounter this barrage of news stories about the impact that AI is going to have on this, and that, and the other thing. And a lot of them especially interact with the world of work.


JULIET

Yeah. Endless AI conversation these days. So we are now— we have been collecting some AI data and we're planning to do more in it. But what we're seeing anecdotally and also from some survey stuff, and it's also our— this was our hypothesis about what we what we think. There's a lot of employee resistance to AI, and that's no surprise because we're already seeing some companies use AI to lay people off. And there was a big layoff at Microsoft some weeks ago.


And the thing about the four-day week companies is I think people feel a lot more secure in their jobs because they know their employers are just acting differently, right? They're acting in a humane way that shows that they care. And what some of the survey evidence is suggesting is that four-day week employers have people that you get more adoption and get more efficient use of AI.


I mean, it's one thing that sort of bringing AI in is one thing, but then how are people using it and are they using it and so forth? So I have a chapter in the book about AI, and one of the big thrusts of the chapter is if we— if there's going to be AI adoption, which it seems pretty clear there is in the workplace, it has to be coupled with work time reduction, because otherwise you just throw a lot of people out of work and get a really dysfunctional outcome, a terrible outcome.


And who should benefit from AI? It's making workers so much more productive and not just the worker. First of all, is it just going to be employers and the companies and the shareholders? Well, plenty of people are hoping for that. But if even if you're thinking about, okay, more of a shared prosperity for the workers who use the AI and the companies, what about the ones that you've thrown out of work because you didn't reduce work time? It can't just be the workers who remain. So work time reduction with, you know, fewer hours per job, not fewer jobs: that has to be the vision that we coalesce around.


ANNA

Amazing. I'm with you. I think a lot of our listeners will probably agree with that. Amazing. What a great conversation. Really fantastic. Lovely to hear about all your work and incredible research and the push at the state level. This is, you know, this is exciting stuff. I have to say, do you have any ways that people can get involved?


JULIET

Yes, there's an organization called workfour.org — just google workfour.org — it was started by a couple of people, including John Leland, who is the motive force at Kickstarter for getting the four-day week. It works on the political and legislative side as well as working with companies. They're creating communities of practice of companies who are interested in doing this and learning from each other and kind of doing it together, which is the way hours were organized for people in the US and Massachusetts, which is obviously the audience— the main audience here.


That would be the best way to get involved, but you can also just shoot me an email if you read the book, which would be wonderful. I list some of the organizations. If you are an employer and you're interested in getting consultants to help you do this, I can also put you in touch with those folks. My team has been doing free surveying of companies just because we're really committed to this. So reach out to me or any of the orgs in the book and join this movement.


ANNA

Amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks for all the work that you do. Thanks to our listeners. Jonathan, any final words?


JONATHAN

No, thank you so much, Julie. I thought this was a real— it's really exciting when you see things like this starting to spread throughout the real world.


JULIET

Thank you. We need some positive.


JONATHAN

Exactly. Amidst all of the doom scrolling, it's nice to see positive things happening.


ANNA

That's right. Exactly. Fantastic. Thank you so much. See you next time.